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242
9 Post subject: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 22, 2008 - 09:47 AM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole and if you are interested in antenna design and performance try the program MMANA GAL at http://mmhamsoft.amateur-radio.ca/ Shocked Laughing
 
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2WR1326Offline
Post subject: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 22, 2008 - 04:25 PM
President
President


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 888
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Status: Offline
This program may caculate what you might get, but when you build one, adjust it, and set it up right the way Gary did. Then run tests on it, and you will see it is possible to get 9db gain from the 11 meter J just like it can be done on 2 meters. There are some changes you will have to make to get it right, but it can and has been done. There are now I believe 10 or so of Gary's JPole out there and all of them are doing the same... 9db omni direction gain!

I am not saying you are wrong, and I hope your not saying we are wrong. It may be hard to believe unless you seen the readings that these JPoles are getting. Once you seen the real thing in action, you would then see it is possible & it has been done by KE4DFB aka 203 - Gary.

_________________
~ Spitfire / 2WR1326 aka Gary. Professional Radio Operator. KD5XRW
Mobile: President Lincoln / Astatic Red Devil / Texas Star DX500v / Wilson 5000 Magnet Mount.
Base: Kenwood TS-430S, PS-430, SP-430, AT-250 / MC-60a / J-Pole Antenna.
Spare: President Lincoln #2/ Astatic D104 TUP9 10DA / Kenwood MC-47.
EN53WB :: 27.385 LSB :: Email: 1326 @ DXRW dot ORG
 
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242
9 Post subject:   PostPosted: Aug 22, 2008 - 10:31 PM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

I have been building j-poles for over 21 years and have designed and built over 35 of them for people that just got into the radio hobby. These also include j-poles for more than just 11 meters. The program MMANA GAL is very accurate. I have used this program to design many, many types of antennas. I have plugged the numbers into this program for existing antennas like Maco, Avanti, Hustler, Hy-Gain, Jo Gunn and more. I know the characteristics of these antennas and how they perform. The MMANA GAL is accurate.

As for the j-pole that some people claim will do 9 db of gain on 11 meters, I would suggest contacting one of the big antenna manufacturers to sell them the design. I am sure they would be most anxious to obtain a design for a base omni directional antenna that will do 9 db of gain on 11 meters since they currently have none.

One other suggestion is to send this 9bd gain j-pole to an independent lab for certification. This just might be a good idea. If it is not certified for 9bd gain, someone may try to sue the manufacturer of the j-pole for false representation.

Beware of snake oil salesmen!
 
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Post subject: 2 METERTEST  PostPosted: Aug 23, 2008 - 01:05 AM






RAN THIS PROGRAM ON THE 2 METER ANTENNA THAT WAS AGREEDED WOULD DO 9 DB GAIN AND GOT ONLY 6.-- DB REPORT.

WELL

A 1/4 WAVE 2 METER OF ABOUT 20 INCHES HAS ABOUT 2.15 NUL. ZERO DB GAIN.

A 1/4 WAVE 6 METER OF ABOUT 54 INCHES HAS ABOUT 2.15 NUL. ZERO DB GAIN.

A 1/4 WAVE 11 METER OF ABOUT 108.8 INCHES HAS ABOUT 2.15 NUL.ZERO DB GAIN.

FUNNY THAT THEY ALL WORK THE SAME WAY WITHOUT REGARD TO FREQ'.

LOWER THE FREQ', LARGER THE ANTENNA. IT'S ALL PROPORATIONAL.

A PERSON CAN GET SO WRAPPED UP IN THE MATH AND THE FORMULAS THAT THEY CAN LOSE THE CONCEPT OF THE REAL WORLD.

IF IT WORKS ON 2 METERS IT WORKS ON 11, 20 , 40 METERS. AGAIN, IT'S ALL PROPORATIONAL

NOW I THINK THE WORLD OF 242 IN TEXAS, AND IF HE FEELS THAT THE WAY HE LOOKS AT IT IS RIGHT, I'M WILL NOT CONDAME HIM FOR THAT.

AND I THINK HE FEELS THE SAME WAY. IT JUST A DIFFERANCE IN VIEWS.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK 242, IT KEEPS EVERYBODY ON THEIR TOES TEE HEE.

LATER MY FRIEND GARY KE4DFB-203.
 
   
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242
25 Post subject: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 23, 2008 - 11:49 PM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

One suggestion is to send this 9bd gain j-pole to an independent lab for certification. This just might be a good idea. If it is not certified for 9bd gain, someone may try to sue the manufacturer of the j-pole for false representation.
 
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tomintexasOffline
Post subject: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 24, 2008 - 08:03 AM
DX Student
DX Student


Joined: Aug 24, 2008
Posts: 1

Status: Offline
Beware of snake oil salesmen!

im sorry but i just cant fathom a 9 db jpole, no matter WHAT band its tuned for. a jpole is a jpole, and a jpole only has a 3 db gain.
by the way, thats 3 db over a dipole<DBD>. 6 db as one poster said could be DBI, as in db over an isotropic antenna in free space, but i do digress.

9 db gain... nah!
 
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2WR1326Offline
Post subject: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 24, 2008 - 08:31 AM
President
President


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 888
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Status: Offline
So, you are saying that N1WAS's theory ( http://www.cmara.org/N1WAS1.htm ) is not true? N1WAS proved it to be possible, KE4DFB took that same theory and made it possible for 11 meters. Get one of Gary's J-Poles and prove them wrong. Until then, this discussion is going no place and I am out of it. Everyone else can continue to discuss this theory. Thats the nice thing about this place! Smile

_________________
~ Spitfire / 2WR1326 aka Gary. Professional Radio Operator. KD5XRW
Mobile: President Lincoln / Astatic Red Devil / Texas Star DX500v / Wilson 5000 Magnet Mount.
Base: Kenwood TS-430S, PS-430, SP-430, AT-250 / MC-60a / J-Pole Antenna.
Spare: President Lincoln #2/ Astatic D104 TUP9 10DA / Kenwood MC-47.
EN53WB :: 27.385 LSB :: Email: 1326 @ DXRW dot ORG
 
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oldhippieOffline
Post subject: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 24, 2008 - 10:33 PM
DX Student
DX Student


Joined: Sep 08, 2007
Posts: 77

Status: Offline
I look at it this way, if the antenna works good, I do not worry about gain and as soon as I get the money together, I will have one of Gary's J-Poles. Nuff said!!!!

_________________
Cornpatch of South-East Iowa
 
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242
Post subject: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 25, 2008 - 08:53 AM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

1326

So, you are saying that N1WAS's theory ( http://www.cmara.org/N1WAS1.htm ) is not true? N1WAS proved it to be possible; KE4DFB took that same theory and made it possible for 11 meters.

Ok letís look at what N1WAS's theory AT ( http://www.cmara.org/N1WAS1.htm N1WAS said

I quote N1WAS

For instance, a half wave vertical can be stated as having 3db of gain over a quarter wave. Now comes the Collinear. By stacking half wave sections, one over the other, fed in phase, we can have as much as 3db of gain per section over a quarter wave. We can feed the sections in phase by inserting a quarter wave phasing loop between the half wave sections. The loop will shift the phase of the first half wave section 180 degrees, and feed the second section in phase with the first. Three half wave sections fed in this manner, will produce 9db of omni directional gain.

END of quote


N1WAS said A Collinear. and I donít see phasing loopís there are two of them on N1WAS I donít see one in the picture of Garyís antenna on this web site


N1WAS did not put a picture of the finished antenna on his website so I put one together with the computer so you can see what a 2 meter collinear looks like it is below this text.

you can only see the pic's if you login


Do you see the three half wave sections and the quarter wave phasing loops?
 
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242
Post subject: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole  PostPosted: Aug 25, 2008 - 09:02 AM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

N1WAS did not put a picture of the finished antenna on his website so I put one together with the computer so you can see what a 2 meter collinear looks like
 
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242
Post subject: Mis-information with N1WAS 2 meter Jpole  PostPosted: Aug 28, 2008 - 09:42 PM
DX Zeta
DX Zeta


Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 148

Mis-information with N1WAS 2 meter Jpole

Take a look at what WB6BYU had to say about it on eham


Well this probably isn't the worst mis-information that I've seen on the
web, certainly, and it looks like there is some good information in the
article as well. So I'd suggest that, instead of simply crying, "this is
wrong", we set about to correct the erroneous assumptions that underly
this claim: this will give readers a better idea of how to evaluate such
claims in the future.

And you might want to write to the author as well and point out the
correction to them (and the underlying theory). I've done this before
and the author was grateful for the correction of a long-held assumption
that wasn't correct.


For starters, the gain of a dipole is NOT 3db over a quarter wave
ground plane. The exact value depends on how you define each
antenna: whether the ground plane is really over an infinite ground,
and whether the dipole is over the same ground as the ground plane.
But if we build a typical VHF ground plane antenna at a reasonable
height using sloping radials and compare it to a half wave dipole at
the same height, the gain difference is very small. In fact, if the ground
plane radials are bent downwards to where they are parallel to the
transmission line, it BECOMES a dipole, therefore both antennas have
the same gain. With flat radials the maximum difference is about 1dB,
and with the typical slant to get a 50 ohm input impedance the
difference is about 0.5 dB or so. (Since an isotropic antenna is just
over 2dB down from a dipole, it is unlikely to have any efficient antenna
that is 3dB down from a dipole!)

The next error is the 3dB improvement when adding a 1/2 wave section.
First, this only applies with sufficient spacing between the two elements,
which isn't the case here. (Two colinear dipoles end-to-end give about
2dB gain over a single one rather than 3dB. On 2m you need about
2' spacing between the ends of the elements to get the 3dB gain.)

And this 3dB improvement (with optimum spacing) applies to DOUBLING
the antenna. Since adding the third half wave section is no longer
doubling the existing antenna, it doesn't give as much gain as adding
the second one did. So it only adds a bit more gain to the 2dB over a
dipole from the first two elements, for a total of roughly 3dB over a
dipole, or perhaps 3.5 dB over a ground plane antenna with sloping
radials at the same average height.

Or about the same as an other 8', 2 x 5/8 wave antenna like the
Ringo Range, IsoPole, etc.

That isn't to say that the antenna won't work, of course, just that one
can't expect the stated gain out of the antenna in normal conditions.


http://www.eham.net/forums/VHFUHF/8086
 
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212Offline
Post subject: RE: Mis-information with N1WAS 2 meter Jpole  PostPosted: Sep 07, 2008 - 11:29 PM
Spammer
Spammer


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 9
Location: EAST,TN Elizabethton
Status: Offline
I knew this 9db gain from a jpole was a joke from the beginning,reminds me of the crap[py antron with the 9.9 db gain that everybody ran out and bought
 
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2WR1326Offline
Post subject: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole -vs- Gary's J. test'em  PostPosted: Sep 07, 2008 - 11:46 PM
President
President


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 888
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Status: Offline
N1WAS used an antenna analyzer to test his 2 meter J-Pole, KE4DFB used a know value from a known beam to caculate his 11 meter J-Pole. WB6BYU Didn't test either antennas. I will have to take the word of the two Amature Operators that have, along with the other readings other radio operators who own one of Gary's J-Pole have given. Its no joke, get one and test it yourself.

I will quote the many operators here in this town who have one and heard someone on one... "Its a beam killer". Until someone takes Gary's J-Pole and testes it with their antenna analyzer, it will still be stated that this particular design of KE4DFB's 11 meter J-Pole is about 9db gain. Also as stated, don't cry because you think its wrong. Test it out for yourself!!!

_________________
~ Spitfire / 2WR1326 aka Gary. Professional Radio Operator. KD5XRW
Mobile: President Lincoln / Astatic Red Devil / Texas Star DX500v / Wilson 5000 Magnet Mount.
Base: Kenwood TS-430S, PS-430, SP-430, AT-250 / MC-60a / J-Pole Antenna.
Spare: President Lincoln #2/ Astatic D104 TUP9 10DA / Kenwood MC-47.
EN53WB :: 27.385 LSB :: Email: 1326 @ DXRW dot ORG
 
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212Offline
Post subject: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole -vs- Gary  PostPosted: Sep 08, 2008 - 12:22 AM
Spammer
Spammer


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 9
Location: EAST,TN Elizabethton
Status: Offline
what he has built is in the 3 db gain area,nothing more ,nothing less.
 
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2WR1326Offline
Post subject: Re: RE: The DB gain of a 11 meter J-pole -vs- Gary  PostPosted: Sep 08, 2008 - 05:12 AM
President
President


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 888
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Status: Offline
212 wrote:
what he has built is in the 3 db gain area,nothing more ,nothing less.


What "he" are you refering to? Is it N1WAS or KE4DFB? Did you build a 2 meter J-Pole or 11 meter J-Pole yourself? I am wondering were you get the 3db gain readings from? KE4DFB mentioned that he spent over a year on his design. Most of us will be around in another year if you want to give the 11 meter J-Pole a shot. Your not far from Clarksville, bring your equipment and test one of KE4DFB's J-Pole out yourself. You may like it so much, you may take one back home with you!

_________________
~ Spitfire / 2WR1326 aka Gary. Professional Radio Operator. KD5XRW
Mobile: President Lincoln / Astatic Red Devil / Texas Star DX500v / Wilson 5000 Magnet Mount.
Base: Kenwood TS-430S, PS-430, SP-430, AT-250 / MC-60a / J-Pole Antenna.
Spare: President Lincoln #2/ Astatic D104 TUP9 10DA / Kenwood MC-47.
EN53WB :: 27.385 LSB :: Email: 1326 @ DXRW dot ORG
 
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